Instead of using good bricks, they put in mere brickbats and used no mortar, but simply paddled earth. Unless they had the wise provision made in this clause, that would be repeated in every house. The officers of the Board were limited in number, and they would have to go from house to house, and in the intervals between their visits, the work would be scamped. Therefore, the Board, after much discussion, came to the conclusion, and the hon. gentleman (Hon. A. P. MacEwen) fully agreed with them, that they should have a list of honest contractors, and that all works should be done by these people. It was not likely, as the Acting Attorney-General said, that the Board would reject any man who could give a proper guarantee. The sole object was to get the work done satisfactorily, because a bad drain was worse than no drain at all.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE said Mr. Chadwick, in his report, had made a recommendation, in almost the same words as those used in the Ordinance, that the work should be done by the Government or persons approved by the Government.
His EXCELLENCY—They have even found it necessary at home. I think I am right in saying so?
The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes.
His EXCELLENCY—I don't think the Council would wish to act so unfairly by the Board as not to strengthen their hands to the necessary extent. We want this drainage thoroughly well done, and therefore we must arm the Board with the necessary power. As far as I understand, there will be a number of these contractors. The work won't be confined to two or three men. There will be a number from whom to choose.
Hon. A. P. MacEwen—Then I understand any landlord can employ his own contractor!
The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Provided he is satisfactory to the Board.
His EXCELLENCY—If he is on the list.
The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes; or he need not be on the list. Provided he is an honest contractor known to the Board, there will be no objection.
Hon. P. Ryrie—I think a list would be very dangerous. A man might sell his name to someone else.
His EXCELLENCY—That is a danger that we are always exposed to, as I know from my experience in the army. We employ a man and he sublets his contract. That is a danger we must try to guard against.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE—And there is provision for supervision by the Board.
His EXCELLENCY asked the Hon. A. P. MacEwen if he was satisfied with the explanation that had been given.
Hon. A. P. MacEwen said the explanation was not altogether satisfactory. He had had many conversations with Chinese on this subject and had had much information given to him, though this was not the time to notice it, and it would be more satisfactory if they had the opportunity of employing their own men and paying their own prices.
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His EXCELLENCY—By their own prices, you mean, of course, the prices for thoroughly good work. If they employ people who do the work in a very indifferent way, as explained by the Surveyor-General, of course, the contract would be very much cheaper; but you mean the most economical way of doing thoroughly good work?
Hon. A. P. MacEwen—Precisely, and with that object, I propose that it shall be done to the satisfaction of the Board.
Hon. P. Ryrie seconded the amendment of the Hon. A. P. MacEwen. He said he had had some experience of contractors' work. He referred to a case where a tender of $4,700 was worked down by competition to $3,000 odd. If a number of men were to be put into a special class, it would give them an advantage over the others.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that in connection with this clause, an amendment would be moved in clause 79, providing that only all "reasonable" expenses incurred by the Board could be recovered. If any landlord could prove the sum claimed from him for constructing his drain was not reasonable, the Judge would not grant it, and on that insertion being made, the Chinese who came to him (the speaker) on the subject withdrew their objection.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE said he did not think it likely the Board would be employed to do much of this work. What he understood was that the Board wanted to get a number of men by whom they knew the work would be done honestly if it was left to them, and that the drain would not be, to use Mr. Chadwick's words, an elongated cesspool filled with mud through which the sewage infiltrated. It might perhaps meet the views of the hon. member if they were to add at the end, after the words "under the Supervision of the Board," "or to the satisfaction of the Board," making still another alternative. If it was found the work had been scamped, it could then be taken up again. It would give a wider latitude to the Board in case they could trust the persons doing the works.
Hon. A. P. MacEwen—The remarks of his Honour are very much to the point, and I would be perfectly satisfied if his suggestion be adopted.
The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I trust Your Excellency will see your way to let this clause stand as it is. I assure you there is no intention to take away work from any honest contractor. The sole object of the Sanitary Board—in which my hon. friend entirely concurred, so that I am taken very much by surprise today by his opposition—the sole object of the Sanitary Board is to keep out a number of scamps who might be put forward to do this work. There are a great many natives who do not know the value of a house drain, who simply have one because the law requires it. They want to comply with the law, but it is immaterial to them whether the work be done in the most perfunctory manner or be done well. It is therefore most important this power should be retained in the hands of the Board. I am perfectly sure the alarm expressed about this is groundless. It has been stated, over and over again, that there is no likelihood of the Board rejecting any man who gives security for doing the work properly. I very much wish hon. members would leave the clause as it stands. I cannot conceive any clause of the Bill more important than this.
Hon. A. P. MacEwen—I think the hon. member has twice in his remarks this evening alluded to my approval of what took place in the Sanitary Board. That is perfectly correct, but I never bound myself by any information we received from an expert like the Surveyor-General. I reserved to myself the right to discuss the Bill when it was brought before the public, and when it was so brought before the public, I received a great deal of information. I don't think my hon. friend is right, therefore, in trying to bind me down, as regards my position in this Council, by anything I said in the Sanitary Board.
His EXCELLENCY—I think that is quite understood.
The SURVEYOR-GENERAL said the words suggested by the Acting Chief Justice dispensed with supervision by the Board.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE—Not necessarily. It says the work is to be done under the supervision of the Board or to the satisfaction of the Board.
The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Provided it does not dispense with supervision, I have no objection.
The clause was amended accordingly. Clauses 61, 62, and 53 were struck out, being relocated to the Building Ordinance.
Hon. WONG SHING said that clause 64 (re-numbered 62), which requires a space of four feet between a building and a slope of the hillside, would entail a great sacrifice of property. He mentioned specially the houses on the northern side of Queen's Road and Jervois Street.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE said it seemed to him premature to discuss this clause until they had decided on the definition of a new building. As he understood, a building taken down to a certain extent was to be considered a new building. Along Queen's Road and Jervois Street, there were basements which had been inhabited for thirty or forty years. If a house there were burnt down, it would have to be reconstructed, and if it were still to be used as a dwelling, a space of four feet will have to be left between the house and the hillside, although the basement had been occupied as a dwelling for thirty or forty years. Was that necessary, or was it what was intended? If so, then there would clearly be a great sacrifice of property. But it occurred to him that it might meet the views both of the Sanitary Board and the Chinese, if it were left to the Sanitary Board in each particular case to decide whether a four feet passage should be left or not. He should think that in the case of most of the houses along Queen's Road and Jervois Street that were completely dry and had been inhabited for many years, in the event of reconstruction, they would be allowed to be rebuilt as they had been before.
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stead of using good bricks put in merebrickbats. and used uo mortar, but simply paddled earth. Unless they had the wise provision made in this clause that would be repeated in every house. The officers of the Board were limited in ber, and they would have to go from honga to ( house, and in the intervals between their visits the work would be scamped. Therefore the Boar, after much discussion, came to the con- clusion and the hon. gentleman (Hon. A. P. Mac-! Ewon) fully agreed with them-that they should havea list of honest contractors, and that all works should be done by these people. It was not likely, as the Acting Attorusy-General said, that the Board would reject any man who could give a proper guarantee. The sole object was to get the work done satisfactorily, because a bad drain was worse than no drain at all.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTres said Mr. Chad- wick in his report had made a recommendation, in almost the same words as those used in the Ordinance, that the work should be done by the Government or persons approved by the Govern- ment.
His EXCELLENCY-They have even found it necessary at home. I think I am right in say- ing so?
The SURVEYOR-GENERAL-Yee.
His EXCELLENCY-I don't think the Council would wish to act so unfairly by the Board as not to strengthen their hands to the necessary extent. We want this drainage thoroughly well done and therefore we must arm the Board with the necessary power. As far as I understand there will be a number of these contrators. The work won't be confined to two or three men. There will be a number from whom to choose. Hon. A. P. MACEWEN-Then I understand any landlord can employ his own contractor!
The SURVEYOR-GENGBAL-Provided he is satisfactory to the Board.
His EXCELLENCY-If he is on the list.
The SURVEYOR-GENERAL-Yes; or he need not be on the list. Provided he is an honest contrac. tor known to the Board there will be no objection. Hon. P. Rrare-I think a list would be vary dangerous. A man might sell his name to some one else.
His EXCELLENCY-That is a danger that we are always exposed to, as I know from my ex. parience in the army. We employ a man and he sablets his contract. That is a danger we must try to guard against.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE-And there is provision for supervision by the Board.
HIS EXCELLENCY asked the Hon. A. P. Mac- Ewen if he was satisfied with the explanation that had been given.
Hon. A. P. MacEwen said the explanation was not altogether satisfactory. He had had many conversations with Chinainen on this sub. ject and had had much information given to him. though this was not the time to notice it, and it would be more satisfactory if they had the opportunity of employing their own men and paying their own prices.
53
His EXCELLENCY.-By their own prices you mean, of course, the prices for thoroughly good work. If they employ people who do the work in a very indifferent way, as explained by the Surveyor-General, of course the contract would be very much cheaper; bat you mean the most economical way of doing thoroughly good work P
Hon. A. P. MACEWEK-Precisely and with that object I propose that it shall be done to the satisfaction of the Board.
Hon. P. RYRIE seconded the amendment of the Hon. A. P. MacEwen. He said he had had some experience of contractors' work.
He re- referred to a case where a tender of $4,700 was worked down by competition to $3,000 odd. If a number of men were to be put into a special class it would give them an advantage over the others.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that in connection with this clanso an amendment would be moved in olanse 79, providing that only all "reasonable" expenses incurred by the Board could be recovered. If any landlord could prove the sum claimed from him for construct- ing his drain was not reasonable the Judge would not grant it, and on that insertion being made the Chinese who came to him (the speaker) on the subject withdrew their objection.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE said he did not think it likely the Board would be employed to do much of this work. What he understood was that the Board wanted to get a number of men by whom they know the work would be done honestly if it was left to them, and that
the drain would not be, to use Mr. Chad. wick's words, an elongated cesspool filled with mud through which the sewage infiltrated. It might perhaps meet the views of the hon. member if they were to add at the end, after the words "under the Supervision of the Board,” "or to the satisfaction of the Board," making still another alternative. If it was found the work had been scamped it could then be taken up again. It would give a wider latitude to the Board in case they could trust the persons doing the works.
Hon. A. P. MACEWEN-The remarks of his Honour are very much to the point and I would be perfectly satisfied if his suggestion be adopted. The SURVEYOR-GENERAL-I trust Your Ex- velloncy will see your way to let this clause stand as it is. I assure you there is no intention to take away work from any honest contractor. The sole object of the Sanitary Board-in which my hon. friend entirely concurred, so that I am taken very much by surprise to-day by his op position-the sole object of the Sanitary Board is to keep oat a number of scamps who might be put forward to do this work. There are a great many natives who do not know the value of a house drain, who simply have one because the law requires it. They want to comply with the law, but it is immaterial to them whether the work be done in the most perfunctory manner or be done well. It is therefore most important this power should be retained in the hands of the Board.
Iam per- fectly sure the alarm expressed about this is groundless. It has been stated, over and over again, that there is no likelihood of the Board rejecting any man who gives security for doing the work properly. I very much wish hon. members would leave the clause as it stands. I cannot conceive any clause of the Bill more im- portant than this.
Hon. A. P. MACEWEN-I think the hon. member has twice in his remarks this evening alluded to my approval of what took place in the Sanitary Board. That is perfectly correct, but I never bound myself by any information we re- ceived from an expert like the Surveyor-General. I reserved to myself the right to discuss the Billi when it was brought before the public, and when it was so brought before the public I received a great deal of information. I don't think my hon. friend is right, therefore, in trying to biod me down, as rogards my position in this Council, by anything I said in the Sanitary Board.
His EXCELLENCY-I think that is quite un. derstood.
The SURVEYOR-GENEEAL said the words aug. gested by the Acting Chief Justice dispensed with supervision by the Board.
The ACTINO CHIEF JUSTICE -Not necessarí- ly. It says the work is to be done under the supervision of the Board or to the satisfaction of the Board.
The SURVEYOR-General-Provided it does not disponse with supervision Chave no objection. ¡
The clause was amended accordingly. Clauses 61, 69, and 53 wars struck out, being relocated to the Building Ordinanna,
Hon. WONG SHING said that clanse 64 (re- numbered 62) which requires a space of four feat hetween a building and a slope of the hill side would entail a great sacrifics of property. He mentioned specially the houses on the northern side of Quoou's Road, and Jervois strast.
The ACTING Cates JUSTICE said it gemad to him prematura to discuss this clause until they had decided on the definition of a new building. As he understood, a buildiur 'takan dowa to s certain extent was to be considered a Uw building. Along Queen's Road and Jorrois Straet there were basements which had been in- habited for thirty or forty years. If a house there were burnt down it would have to be re- constructed, and if it worn still to be used as a dwelling a space of four fast will have to ba left between the house and the hillside, although the basement had been acconied as a dwelling For thirty or forty yours Was that necessary, or was it what was intended? If so, then there would clearly be a great sacrifics of property. But it occurred to him that it might want the views both of the Sanitary Board and the Chinose, if it wers left to the Sanitary Board in each particular case to decide whether a four fest paisaga should be left or not. Hel should think that in the case of most of the houses along Queen's Road and Jervois Street that were completely dry and had baon inhabited for many years, in the event of reconstruction they would be allowed to ba rabuilt as they had baan hoforo. There might be other hortor
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